John Knox Presbytery did not shock the slightly left of center to evangelical world by its recent decision to defy their denomination's constitution and make a, sigh, uh, well, geez, gasp, pant, other than straight path to ordain a guy whose self-affirming, avowed, and unrepentant lifestyle is, sigh, uh, well, geez, gasp, pant, antithetical to the, sigh, uh, well, geez, gasp, pant, constitution of their/his denomination.
Considering the PCUSA's constitution is consistent with Biblical Christianity, it seems like a queer decision.
If you'd like to bone up on it, go to www.presbyweb.com, www.ChurchandWorld.com, www.layman.org, or www.pcusa.com.
Though I don't get all hot and bothered by the, sigh, uh, well, geez, gasp, pant, issue to the chagrin of friends on the left and right who seem to stiffen up whenever it rises to the levels of JKP's flagrant defiance of the PCUSA's constitution, I am interested in how folks see it from their, uh, peepholes rather than one of those videos from those stores next to...
So we did a survey:
You are among a very select few being surveyed for this typically
unscientific KD Denominational Denouement Probe.
KD, despite generating no income to obviate my stress of plastic
pasts and forcing me to contemplate the auction of my mule
next month to finish that sad chapter for good/bad/ugly/evil,
is read by left, right, up, down, twisted, turned, and so on.
In other words, people who still think and don't act like the lemmings
populating/polluting the mainline and our least favorite two American
political parties aren't afraid to ask the questions that may...and
subscribe without tokens of gratitude.
So if you don't chime in, nobody's goin' to ring your bell when it
On to the survey.
As you know, John Knox Presbytery, meeting recently in
Madison, Wisconsin (hardly, uh, ironic), has fulfilled the fantasy
of a self-affirming, avowed, and unrepentant because he's got
"more light" to reimagine revelation from out of this world gay guy
and cleared the way for his ordination in defiance of the PCUSA's
increasingly ignored constitution (viz., BO/BC).
1. What does this mean?
2. How will particular franchise churches respond?
3. How did it happen?
Please be as clear, concise, and compelling as I am not.
You've got 24 hours - less or maybe more depending upon the
needs of my increasingly high maintenance friends in...
Blessings and Love!
We received 127 responses (representative quotes below) with two insulting/ignorant rejoinders.
A very famous guy who has become the darling of the left-wing despite being a crypto-evangelical didn't even bother to acknowledge the request; meaning he knows who's, uh, buttering his, uh,...
A retired pastor wrote, "Please drop me from your mailing list. As long as my pension checks keep coming in and my medical benefits aren't disturbed, I don't give a damn what the denomination does anymore and I just want to be left alone with memories of better days."
C'est la guerre.
What does this mean?
Former PCUSA Pastor in Virginia: "Wrong question! Considering the rampant apostasy in your denomination, how did it take so long to happen?"
Retired Presbytery Stated Clerk in Alabama: "It means nothing. It is all a piece of what has been going on since the Auburn Affirmation and the destruction of J. Gresham Machen!"
Lawyer in New York: "It is a test. If it doesn't work this time, someone will try again next year."
Former Big Shot in the Reagan Administration: "MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. A denomination that rejects the clear teachings of Scripture and flaunts its own constitutional agreements is effectively dead. A denomination that elevates sentiment above morality is adrift in relativism and has no witness to a broken world. Some costs are easy to enumerate: accelerated membership loss, falling offerings, weakened social credibility, spiraling descent into irrelevance. The most important cost is less obvious: the loss of its lampstand. This is neo-paganism and a rejection of the very covenant which birthed the church. The wrath of God falls hardest on those who were given the light of His grace but rejected it nonetheless. Thyatira comes to mind."
EF Pastor in Minnesota: "This decision indicates the leadership has chosen a path contradicting God's guidelines for success as found in Joshua 1:7...There is no way that God will bless this decision."
Pastor in Iowa: "It means nFOG has a leg up now: 'Well, JKP has already done this, and we can't go back now.' It means more conservative churches will give up and begin to bolt. It means, 'We don't care what you say. We're gonna do what we want.'"
Pastor in West Virginia: "Noting the guy who is getting ordained was on the PUP committee with that Mark guy from one of our seminaries, it means PUP was designed to get this done and they duped the whole denomination to go along with them. nFOG will finish it off. It will finish us off!"
Major Player in Ecumenical Renewal: "It's more of the same 'drift' into culture...The pale of death hangs over the slippery slope...or is it slop?"
Pastor in New Mexico: "John Knox is turning over in his grave; just like Elizabeth is turning over in hers as she watches her son help destroy what she prayed and labored so hard to preserve...JKP is ideological not theological; hence, no surprise...It will be appealed and gazillions will be spent that could have been used for mission...This will accelerate exits...We won't leave because we're not turning our assets and properties over to those ___s. The PCUSA is literally not worth leaving. I'm not wasting any more effort on them."
Elder in Illinois: "It means they're brain dead."
Editor of the Most Influential Ecclesiastical Rag in the World: "It means we're in for another round of Synod and then PJC decisions!...It means we're functionally living outside of our own mutually agreed upon constitution."
Pastor in South Carolina: "Realistically, it means nothing. Mr. Anderson's egocentric belief system has him deluded and convinced that he is correct and 2000 years of orthodox Christianity is wrong. I say it means nothing because it has occurred in a mainline denomination which has already surrendered any claim to honest and faithful practice. This decision will not speed up an already headlong dash to irrelevance. It will not damage a non-existent connectionalism. It will not change anything. It's already over for the PCUSA."
Editor of a Major Distributor of Ecclesiastical News: "If the courts don't overrule this, the PCUSA will go a step further down the slippery slope of being irrelevant to the Kingdom of God by not being under the authority of the self-revelation of God as found in the Bible."
Pastor in Arizona: "Theological struggles seem to take decades and centuries instead of a few short years of successful marketing. Maybe that's why God gave us KDs. We need to be engaged and encouraged! Please keep keepin' on!"
Notorious Renewalist in the PCUSA: "Isaiah 5:20...Some are doomed to hell. Others are deceived and on the brink. Jude 23."
EP in California: "The fundamental seat of power in the PCUSA has once again flexed its muscle and thumbed its proverbial nose at the church. It's not the first time and it won't be the last time. No matter what it does to the church, the apostates are saying, 'Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!'"
Businessman in Chicago: "If this person can scruple this standard for ordination, then it should follow that we can allow a person to scruple the requirement to allow female pastors. What goes around comes around!"
Lawyer in Maine: "I do not think that the fallout will be that great because the media will not cover it and most Presbyterians don't know. A body at rest tends to stay at rest."
How will particular franchise churches respond?
Lawyer in New Jersey: "Some churches are paying attention. Most aren't. You pastors need to know something. Your denomination isn't even on the radar of American culture anymore."
Famous Newswoman: "My guess is most churches are like me. Since I no longer follow the road to hell known as the PCUSA, I have turned away from following its pathetic soap opera. It's the Titanic!"
Pastor in the Shadow of the NFL Hall of Fame: "Hand-wringing! Wishing things were different! And from our renewal groups? Sound and fury! They'll huff and puff...and do nothing for God's sake!"
Elder in Neighboring Former-PCUSA-Now-EPC Church: "Three possibilities. Say nothing. Cowards! Object and remain as 'loyal opposition.' Churches that enjoy fighting will choose this one! So much wasted energy and resources! Leave the apostate PCUSA. While this is the faithful option, faith isn't a part of the PCUSA anymore."
Pastor in Missouri: "Some will leave. Some will stay because it is politically correct to ordain gays. Some will stay for the unity of the denomination while not having the stomach to call sin sin. Some will stay and do their best to be a guiding light through the darkness of the PCUSA."
EP in Pennsylvania: "A few more will flee; making those of us who remain even more irrelevant than we are now. It's much like sex among hippopotamuses; only another one really cares. We're becoming about as relevant when compared to the world of Christian witness."
Elder in D.C.: "Please! Most churches don't know or care. They're too concerned about the correct color for pulpit hangings! The vast majority of churches don't have a clue. And they don't care! They only care about what's going on in their churches. They are isolationists!"
A Pentecostal Presbyterian: "Most likely in a cowardly way. The pastors are afraid of their superiors. They're afraid of not being able to relocate. They fear people more than God. This will be another example of who is really on God's side. At some point, believers have to choose between a bar code micro chip in the hand or forehead and buying food, clothing, heat..."
My Favorite Devotional Writer: "Ichabod!"
Keen Observer of Denominational Politics (Parochial/Ecumenical): "Some will thank God and feel emboldened to push for more!"
Software Engineer in Oregon: "Confrontation! Denomination vs. rogues and reactionaries!"
Pastor in California: "The overwhelming majority will not notice. Most will not care. A few will condemn it and be condemned for condemning it. Bizzaro Church. Some will leave. Most won't notice or care. Anyone who even questions this crap, like you, will be ostracized."
Brilliant Theologian: "Some will rejoice as they fail to see this hollow victory as the poison-pill of denominational demise."
Former PCUSAer in the EPC: "Most will accommodate. That's what you always do anyway about any apostasy."
Pastor in Arizona: "This is the last straw of apostasy. Membership will continue to plummet in all denominational churches. Believers will not darken the doors of Presbyterian churches. You better change the name out front!"
Baptist Pastor in Wisconsin: "We're duplicating more membership applications!"
Marketing Expert in California: "The response will be weak because their leadership is vapid. More members will flee evil for Biblical churches."
Retired EP in Florida: "They will do nothing! That's what we've counted on all along!"
Pastor in North Carolina: "As long as 'they' don't come after us, we'll continue to operate as an independent."
How did it happen?
Lawyer in New York: "Duh!!!"
Mentor in a Retirement Village: "You wrote about it not too long ago! They didn't understand ordination questions or lied or changed their minds."
Pastor in Ohio: "Unconverted clergy. Unconvinced laity. See, I did read your book that nobody else buys!"
PCA Pastor in South Carolina: "It has been over a century in the making. The only surprise is it took this long. You are part of a post-Biblical denomination, Dr. KD!"
Pastor in Oklahoma: "Get out that old Martin Niemoller quote! They're coming after the believers in the PCUSA!"
Smart Guy in California: "Abundance breeds complacency. A denomination blessed with so much material wealth thought it was immune to moral decay. Entitlement is the disease and collapse is the outcome...Its aging leadership opted for secure pensions instead of the courage of its convictions. Its membership longed for the message of God's unending love and rebelled against the message of His perfect justice and sure punishment of sin."
A Pastor in My Presbytery: "Nobody cares. We are not a connectional church anymore. We have abandoned Biblical standards. Jesus has left the building! Dandy Don is singing somewhere, 'Turn out the light, the party's over!'"
Another Pastor in My Presbytery: "It goes back to Jane Spahr getting off and nobody doing anything about it. That's when we knew nobody in GA or Louisville would ever again uphold the constitution; unless, of course, it came to per capita when they lie about it being mandatory rather than voluntary!"
Renewal Expert in Illinois: "Disobedience."
Elder in Illinois: "Most laity are ignorant. People in my church still think Presbyterians believe in Jesus as the only way, truth, and life."
Somebody I Really Like But Don't See Enough: "Well-meaning, peace-loving, law-abiding, grace-advocating Presbyterians have not and likely will not hold the line. The people are sleeping. The shepherds are distracted. The bureaucracy is corrupted. 'Me' has been elevated to 'Thou' in our denomination."
Pastor in Georgia: "You're kidding, right? Who populates the bureaucracy, seminaries, specialized ministries, and so on? It's time for local churches to declare scruples against the ___s."
Pastor in Iowa: "A few generations ago, Presbyterians decided to tolerate rejection of the fundamentals of Christianity by its leaders. Can dead bones live? Asking the question is answering it!"
Pastor in Kansas: "The usual way: Romans 1:21-32."
Elder in Delaware: "Whenever people reimagine Christianity apart from Jesus and the Bible and get away with it!"
Elder in Illinois: "Presbyterians look at a man and not THE MESSAGE!"
Lawyer in Pennsylvania: "Unless the Lord builds the house...Those with Biblical understanding lacked the guts at the 1925 GA in not putting the 5 Fundamentals into the constitution. The temperature in the kettle has increased slowly but the frogs are still unaware."
Pastor in Colorado: "The logical result of PUP and the intention of nFOG."
Truly, I'm not really, uh, into, uh, this particular issue; primarily because I think judgmental types from left and right are a bigger problem than guys and gals getting it on with their own gender.
I know guys who like to watch gals...
Parenthetically, I haven't heard of many gals running to those video stores to get...
You know it's true.
Getting, uh, back, uh, to it, my only personal problem on this one is with the left and its ideological hermeneutics featuring Biblical eisegesis over exegesis and the right with its pro-rating of sin which, in this case, betrays some kinda unseemly pathology.
I guess I just believe in the God-breathed authority of Holy Scripture and don't feel big enough to look at it and boast, "I know that's what Jesus and the Bible say, but I think..."
C'est la guerre.
It's a redundancy that goes back to the garden.
Blessings and Love!
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